Posted by Jef on August 17, 2000 at 22:17:21:
How long does one practice for?
The question really is about when to recognize the limits of comprehension, fatigue, and diminishing returns.
It seems to me that when I practice, at times I'll have two or three really good targets back to back (2-3 AR5's with two shots each bull). I then decide to quit and consider what I have done to get those until the next session. (Should I have kept going rather than quit at that point?)
My perception is that this seems to be of some benefit. Rather than continuing to shoot until I get aggravated (at which time I usually put up a pic of some infamous politician and work it out), but I have no way of knowing for sure.
Does all this make sense?
Posted by Roland Cannon on August 17, 2000 at 22:57:21:
Jef, I also wonder about this. I usually do what you are doing. Stop when I get frustrated. Maybe 20-30 shots. Great, but what about when it is a 60 shot match? Are we screwing ourselves by never getting the arm tired?
Posted by RML on August 18, 2000 at 07:06:32:
20-30 shots would not be enough for one of my
training sessions. I do from 80 to 120 shots for
each training session with the air-pistol.
I often start with simulating a competition,
shooting a few sighters, and then 60 shots were I
try to improve my personal best for 60 shots. By
competing with my previous results, I feel that
I am able to keep concentrating better.
Trying to keep up the concentration for 100+
shoots, makes it easier to stay sharp through a
60 shot competition.
I guess I am also a bit influenced by
Ragnar Skanaker, who has described his 4-6 hour
training sessions.
Does it work? Yes, for me it does. Both my
training- and competition-results have been
improving when I do several hours of training each
day (including some dry-fire training).
But then there is the problem of finding time
for that amount of practise.......
Posted by Andre on August 18, 2000 at 12:05:16:
I guess the more you train, the less fatigue (both mental and physical) you feel. My training session vary from 100-120 shots, but I started out with 40 shots (2 20 shot sessions). I think you should build up your training progressively. It's no use to shoot if your mind is elsewhere, but you should make an effort to keep your concentration for as long as possible, even when you're frustrated. Also, you should train more shooting fundamentals then simulating matches. Forget about counting points in training. Try to execute every shot right and keep the groups tight. Shoot the blank target or blacken out the rings with a marker.
Posted by rmw on August 19, 2000 at 17:44:29:
FWIW, I think your talking two different aspects of shooting, the mental side and the physical and with both you have to toughen up. I'll typically shoot 80-120 shots in a session which is approaching my fatigue level. Then matches of 60 seem pretty easy, like "At least I don't have to shoot 120!"...g
As far as backing off and quiting when things get tough, that may be a bad habit. I think you should reserve that for those cases where nothing seems to go right and otherwise, break, refocus and fight back into form. Mentally, you really need to harden yourself to those ocassions where things just aren't going well and forcing yourself back into good shooting form. That is the unpleasant side of training, but I firmly beleive that is what breeds a champion is that mental toughness. But like all things, pushing past your physical limitations wont serve you well, so build up to longer and longer sessions and do the cross training required to make it physically easy to do.
Posted by katie Harrington on August 19, 2000 at 19:23:51:
You should decide what to shoot before you practice. Say, tonight, I will shoot 80 shots, in standing and you probably will. Set out something to work on. EX. trigger control, head position, FOLLOW THOUGH. It really helps. Hopefully you keep goals and know how this works.
I dont suggest shooting at pictures of politicians. But, when I was at a camp I learned some games to play. Not when you are practicing on your own though. Like if you were to put a target up backwards and shoot where you think the black is on the back. I know it sounds stupid, I have never done it myself.
I DEFFINITLY aggree on the shooting more than you would in a match. It gives you endurance. And another thing, never shoot your match the day before it.
Posted by JP O'Connor on August 25, 2000 at 13:48:55:
Hi Katie,
Your suggestions are quite good. It sounds like you are learning a lot and having fun with shooting as well. Keep it up!
I can't help but comment on the backwards target!
You are right about the blank "target" sounding stupid... I certainly thought so! But then...
The blank card is a very common technique in air pistol. Shooters are always surprised that their group is so much smaller than usual even though "there isn't anything to aim at!" The issue here is that in pistol the bull is almost always a distraction from the critical visual task of keeping the front and rear sight aligned. For pistol, this technique can be used at the intermediate level, not just the advanced.
With rifle the technique is almost unheard of, except for the game that you mentioned. I don't know your level of performance, obviously, but here is something to think about when you reach a high level. (...if not already there.)
In rifle, the blank card training technique (goal: shoot a group on a card with no aiming reference - no score of any kind is possible, not even a chance score like the game you mentioned.) is useful for a very different reason. First of all, in rifle, the bull is not a distraction... rather it is a much more critical aspect of the visual task than in pistol. Sight alignment almost takes care of itself if you have a proper and consistent position. (Speaking relatively of course... even the pistol shooter has to aim in the right direction!) In rifle, a blank card can be useful for testing a shooter's ability to relax into a position that is consistent from shot to shot... in effect, we are testing their inner position. The exercise is rarely useful except for a very high level of rifle shooter.
Recently, I stayed with one of my out of town students for three days (and her family - she's only 16) so that we could work on several aspects of her performance. (Normally we can only use phone, email, and Noptel shot files.) One of the exercises was the blank card. She took a couple of shots to settle down and then put everything into a decent group. (With rifle, one typically expects slightly larger groups rather than smaller due to the differences in sighting and aiming between pistol and rifle as mentioned above.) As she develops her inner position, I expect the blank card groups to shrink dramatically to the point that they match her groups aimed on a bull.
I will likely have to go to the "lights out" variation (literally) or on a completely black card since I'm sure she can judge her earlier shots and "aim off" to keep the shots in a group. The lights out exercise is to have the shooter take aim, and then turn off the lights just before the shot is fired. With some athletes, this can be done merely by having them close their eyes for a few seconds before the shot is fired. Either way, it is a tricky exercise to execute (for both athlete and coach) but can be very useful when appropriately applied to a shooter at an appropriate level of development.
These are *extremely* difficult exercises for rifle shooters. One must have an exceedingly good inner position to have good results. But, for those who are at 390/400 and working to get to 398/400 (or maybe even not quite at that level yet)... they help in building awareness and gauging progress.
Posted by JP O'Connor on August 25, 2000 at 13:15:22:
Jef, if you are getting frustrated so quickly in practice, and based on your description of a typical session... you must be keeping score! Ack!
Hang a target, settle into position, then put 10 shots (or more) into a single bull. Then do it again. And again. In air pistol I have been known to put 60 shots into a single bull... or onto a totally blank card. Decide in advance the minimum number of shots you will do that session... though you may have to work up to doing say 100 to 120 a day. Your frustration causes the mental fatigue which causes the loss of focus which causes the "bad" shot which causes the frustration which causes...
oh, you understand! :-)
Break that cycle now!
There isn't a single person on this earth who can shoot a ten on demand. Trust me. OK, now that I have your undivided attention, I'll explain. Performance is the key... score will follow. There are lots of people who can go to the line and perform on demand... a ten follows! They go to the line and do the things they know need to be done (physically, mentally, etc.) and let the shot happen. See the difference?
You need to learn to perform. How? By doing it. Using training methods that prevent you from seeing a score is a great help. You need lots of quality repetitions where you are allowing your body and brain (subconscious or unconscious) to do the shooting while you just remain aware of what's happening. Stop the scoring. Stop the chatter. Stop the self talk. Don't just throw lead down range, though. Be focussed, be determined, be interested.
Another help is to embrace the "bad" shots as your friends! (Uh, now we know JP is really off his rocker.) I tell my best students (who hate the occasional 9's and rarely shoot 8's) that "Eights are your friend!" At first they look at me like I'm nuts (as you likely would do just now!) until I explain. If you focus on your performance, and follow through well and observe what's going on, you will learn more from a single 8 than you will from a whole string of 10's. Much of the evidence you need to evaluate performance (and call the shot) is presented to you during the follow through. Build your awareness of what is going on. Observe. Then you will become aware of the differences between the "good" shots and the "bad" shots. That is the first step in identifying and then correcting the problems in performance. As they are corrected... the scores seem to creep ever higher all by themselves.
How do you suppose a 16 year old girl goes from 380/400 to 390/400 to 398/400? She understands her performance and continually refines it to eliminate the bad shots. She observes the differences between the two kinds of shots and learns how to correct. Then, as a natural course of events, she eventually learns to "sense" the bad ones before they happen, breaks off the shot, starts over, and delivers a great perofrmance... bingo, another 10 is the result. It's fun to watch this happen with a shooter.
It takes time and patience though! Be patient with yourself. Above all:
Have Fun! Enjoy!
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