Posted by Phillip Reedy on August 18, 2000 at 22:21:58:
In Reply to: student rifel posted by Mark on August 18, 2000 at 21:12:48:
The first thing that must be addressed is whether he will be doing ISSF-style 10m shooting, or NRA
three-position. This is important because ISSF (like you would see in the Olympics) is done in the standing position
only, while three-position also includes prone and kneeling. Prone and kneeling is best done with a rifle that allows
the shooter to remain in position while reloading. It is very important from a consistency standpoint to keep the
elbows planted in position as much as possible.
The air rifles that have long compression/cocking levers require a shooter to get out of position in order to operate said levers. This is anathema to the consistency needed for accurate shooting. Therefore, the two good German
springers (FWB 300s and Diana 75s) and any single-stroke pneumatic - or SSP - (what you referred to as “one
pump”) are not going to be the best choices for three-position shooting.
The best choices for three-position shooting are the ones that contain an internal reservoir of either CO2 or
compressed air. There are several CO2 rifles to look at as far as used ones go. The Walther CGM (German) and
Steyr 91 (Austrian) would both make very good choices for 3-pos. shooting. As far as new CO2 rifles go, there is
really just one choice -- the TAU-200. This is a nice rifle, but my preference in CO2 rifles would lean towards a used
German or Austrian one.
In the compressed air, or more properly Pre-Charged Pneumatic rifles, any decent one would be a good choice,
but some are more good than others. Two of the best PCP’s, the FWB P-70 and Steyr LG10P, have loading gates
that will most likely require the shooter to raise his/her arm off the floor in order to reach the breech. Because of this,
I would put these two rifles down the list of choices. IMO the better choices for 3-pos. shooting would be either the
Anschutz 2002CA, Hammerli AR50, or Walther LG200. These three rifles have loading mechanisms that are easier
to manage in the prone and kneeling positions, particularly the Walther.
If the shooter in question will be doing only ISSF standing position, it won’t matter which type of powerplant he
chooses. PCP is nice, but a good SSP such as the FWB 603 or Steyr LG10 would make a great choice. In many
ways, the SSP’s make the best choices.
Here is another thing to consider if this student will be doing 3-pos. shooting. This type of shooting requires the
changing of the length of the stock (a dimension called “pull”) for each position. Choosing a rifle that allows this to
be easily done will save time and aggravation. Therefore, a rifle that utilizes spacer-plates to change the pull wouldn’t
be my first choice. The newer Anschutz metal buttplate, the FWB P-70 buttplate, and the aluminum buttplate
assembly of the Walther LG200 do not require spacers, and are easily adjusted with simple tools.
If I were doing 3-pos. shooting with an air rifle, I would most likely pick the Walther LG200 because of it’s
almost bolt-like loading mechanism, and easily adjustable buttplate assembly.
One last thing to point out -- if this student is shooting Standard Rifle with an Anschutz 1907 or 2007, then he
would be better off with the Anschutz 2002CA air rifle. The stocks on these rifles are very much alike, and therefore
the training from one could carry over to the other.
: I am a teacher in a high school with a JROTC marksmanship team that finished 4 by only one point in the nationals.
: He is wanting to get some scholarships for marksmanship, It is my understanding that he will need to purchase his own gun. Is this true? If so what should he be looking for (PCP or one pump) and why.
Posted by Andy Wai on August 19, 2000 at 00:17:53:
: [...] Prone and kneeling is best done with a rifle that allows
the shooter to remain in position while reloading. It is very important from a consistency standpoint to keep the
elbows planted in position as much as possible.
: [...] Two of the best PCP’s, the FWB P-70 and Steyr LG10P, have loading gates
that will most likely require the shooter to raise his/her arm off the floor in order to reach the breech.
Hmm... My club has a lot of good .22 prone shooters and I can't think of many that keep their trigger side elbow planted all the time. Just becuase you have your elbows in the same place doesn't guarantee everyhting is consistent. For example, it won't stop your right shoulder from slipping forward. And when that happens, all the triangles are off and you'll likely slide sideways.
It's probably better to dismount the gun completely before reload. Forcing yourself to start fresh everytime actually help you develop consistency, not the other way around. I know of people who even go to extreme of doing drills in which you take one shot, get up and walk around, and then get down to shoot another round, and get up again, etc.
To shoot very high scores, one needs to have complete confidence in ones ability to reproduce a position. Prone's sensation is quite a bit sharper than standing so it should be easier to feel, and to reproduce. Standing is quite a bit more subtle.
:[...] Here is another thing to consider if this student will be doing 3-pos. shooting. This type of shooting requires the
changing of the length of the stock (a dimension called “pull”) for each position. Choosing a rifle that allows this to
be easily done will save time and aggravation. Therefore, a rifle that utilizes spacer-plates to change the pull wouldn’t
be my first choice. The newer Anschutz metal buttplate, the FWB P-70 buttplate, and the aluminum buttplate
assembly of the Walther LG200 do not require spacers, and are easily adjusted with simple tools.
Are you sure? I used to have an LGM-2 fitted with an LG200 aluminum buttplate. It does use a pair of cylindrical platic spacers. As far as I know, that part of the design has not changed in the LG200. And don't forget the cheek piece. The wood stock Walthers have one of the worst cheek piece adjustments around. You have to take the piece out completely before you can fiddle with the two vertical columns. It's a big hazzle if you need to change things all the time, such as in 3-P.
Posted by Phillip Reedy on August 19, 2000 at 02:38:34:
["I can't think of many that keep their trigger side eblow planted all the time."]
Hmm, I can't think of many that keep their elbows planted all the time either, but then againt that isn't what I said. I did however say that I would prefer shooting prone with a rifle that would allow the shooter to keep the elbows planted as much as possible.
["Just becuase you have your elbows in the same place doesn't guarantee everyhting is consistent"]
That is true, inasmuch as nothing in life is guaranteed. There is more than one way to do this game -- I was trained differently, and I'm a pretty fair prone shooter myself.
["To shoot very high scores, one needs to have complete confidence in ones ability to reproduce a position"]
This statement is also true, but IMO having to make the extra effort to reproduce a position for every shot is not conducive to consistency at all, and it is consistency that is an important mainstay to accurate shooting. I would also suggest that those people doing the extreme drills that you mentioned are wasting their time. Oh well, I guess the training is different these days.....
["Are you sure? I used to have an LGM-2 fitted with an LG200 aluminum buttplate. It does use a pair of cylindrical platic spacers"]
You are correct. For some reason, I was thinking about the Walther KK sport rifles.
["And don't forget the cheek piece"]
Just because I didn't mention the cheekpiece does it mean that I forgot it. I would certainly agree with you in your assessment about the Walther's cheekpieces, and would add that most of the ones on air rifles are rather fiddly to adjust (though my P-70 isn't too bad). I chose to not mention the cheekpiece because there are shooters who don't need to adjust the cheekpiece when changing positions. Also, because the cheekpieces are so wacky to work with, a person might find it easier to simply move the buttplate up or down a smidge in order to reposition the height of the cheekpiece. This works if the needed height change isn't too great. I also didn't feel the need to write a near dissertation about this subject. ;)
Perhaps the new Anschutz design is more user friendly in the cheekpiece area. I've not used one, so I can't comment for sure, but from the pictures that I've seen it looks like Anschutz might have solved these cheekpiece/buttplate adjustability gripes.
Posted by Andy Wai on August 19, 2000 at 07:24:10:
: Just because I didn't mention the cheekpiece does it mean that I forgot it. I would certainly agree with you in your assessment about the Walther's cheekpieces, and would add that most of the ones on air rifles are rather fiddly to adjust (though my P-70 isn't too bad). I chose to not mention the cheekpiece because there are shooters who don't need to adjust the cheekpiece when changing positions. Also, because the cheekpieces are so wacky to work with, a person might find it easier to simply move the buttplate up or down a smidge in order to reposition the height of the cheekpiece. This works if the needed height change isn't too great. I also didn't feel the need to write a near dissertation about this subject. ;)
Well, I don't normally shoot prone with air rifle. But every time I tried, I find the buttplate won't go high enough to fit nicely on the shoulder. The fact that I use high sight blocks in standing doesn't help, of course. But if I take them out, I need to change the cheekpiece big time. Neither my old Walther nor my current Steyr are very nice in that area, unfortunately.
Beside, my club doesn't have low 10M pellet traps. If you want prone, it has to be .22. So these days, if I want prone at home, I dryfire .22 on the Rika trainer.
: Perhaps the new Anschutz design is more user friendly in the cheekpiece area. I've not used one, so I can't comment for sure, but from the pictures that I've seen it looks like Anschutz might have solved these cheekpiece/buttplate adjustability gripes.
I haven't used a recent model Anschutz air rifle either. But they (I mean both wood and alu stock) do use the same cheekpiece and buttplate carrier modules as the 2213 free rifle, so I can comment on those. And yes, they are great. I think they're the best design not just in air rifle, but the free rifle as well.
All the necessary adjustments are there of course. But best of all, you loosen one screw and the whole module comes out. You're then dealing with a much smaller unit in your hands, as oppose to fiddling with the whole gun on a table.
On top of that, all settings are retained in the modules, the stock is just a straight piece of metal with two holes and a lock screw. So if you feel like money burning holes in your pocket, you can buy extra modules and have a set for each position. Since backend balance weights are attached to the modules and not the stock, just swapping the modules will rebalance the gun for each position as well. Awesome eh?
I think the only thing with using Anschutz air rifle for 3-P is again the concern with maximum buttplate height. Because of ISSF standard rifle regulations, all air rifles seem to have a bias towards low buttplate position. If you compare a 2002 alu against a 2213, you'll see that the tail end of the 2213 comes straight out while the 2002 drops into a triangle to lower the neutral position of the buttplate. That isn't very good for prone. The removeable palm block is nice though.
Posted by Katie Harrington on August 19, 2000 at 19:05:12:
Hello! I am a 14 year old jr. shooter and new to these boards. Your discussion about the cheak peice and butt plate on the new 2002s interests me, because i just got a new one. :) Prevously to having a 2002 with the aluminum butt plate, I had a older model 2002 JR. with the rubber butt plate. I was very happy in the quickness and exactness that you can achive with the newer model. It is true that not all people have to move the cheek peice between positions, but the majority do. Another GREAT feature is the similaritys to the Anschutz 1907. I have one of those too. You can use about the same positions. This comes back to my previous statment, about not all people change cheek peice positions between postions, well, while shooting at Perry, you would have to change the cheek position between 50 and 100 yards and 100 yards to 50 meters. This was great while I was there because I could do it while in position. I would suggest a Anschutz 2002 because I love mine and it is easy to change between people so it would be a great club gun. Also, the 2002/1907 duo is a great way to practice.
Tell me what you think.
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