Posted by Eric Uptagrafft on February 24, 2001 at 15:33:20:
Hi everyone,
I'm just posting a note to talk about training with the Rika trainer.
Currently my wife and I are living in a small apartment with barely enough room to move around. We don't live close enough to any ranges to be able to shoot with any regularity. The only option (besides quitting or being less than the best) was to get some sort of dry-fire training device. To my knowledge, there are three good systems on the market...Rika, SCATT, and Kurt. Due to the limitations of the other two systems (you have to use them at fixed distances, 3m for Kurt, and 5 or 10m for SCATT) I opted for the Rika. This system can be used at any distance between 3 and 10 meters. I wanted the flexibility to train at about 4m in my current apartment and then 10m when I finally move into my new house. I received my Rika from Scott about three weeks ago. I immediately loaded the software and started my practice sessions. I guess the range we train at is about 4 meters. I initially started training for smallbore rifle 3 position. Unfortunately, the apartment is too small to get into the prone position. I was able, however, to set up in both the standing and kneeling positions.
My impressions of the first time I used the device were not too good. I thought there was no way my hold standing could be that bad. I thought there must be something wrong with it (the Rika, not my hold). Actually my bad hold was probably because I hadn't shot or even held a rifle in over four months. After a little over a week of dry firing on the Rika, I did notice a vast improvement in my hold.
Three days before the Rocky Mountain Championships (a high national level rifle competition in Colorado Springs) my new Steyr LG100 air rifle came in. The first thing I did was strap on the Rika and start training. I got two days of dry firing on the Steyr, and about 6 days dry firing on my Anschutz 1913 before the match. I ended up winning prone, 3rd in 3-position, and 5th in air (I've never had to train much prone). I beat a lot of full time shooters from the Army Marksmanship Unit. I don't believe that I would have had nearly those results without the feedback the Rika affords me. Dry-firing inherently has many advantages: it doesn't wear out my good shooting barrel, doesn't hide position and trigger control problems with recoil, and it doesn't shoot up $700/case of my great shooting Eley. Dry firing with the Rika adds immense value to my training by also allowing me to see my hold, and to see how good my trigger control and follow-thru are. The Rika also gives me the feedback that makes dry firing bearable (dry firing would be too boring without it).
My results from the Rocky Mountain Championships in smallbore were nearly identical to what I was getting on the Rika in training. I believe that the correlation between real shot placement and that of the Rika were spot-on. In air rifle I found the Rika to be harder to shoot on than the real thing. This is good...it makes me work harder in training. About the only complaint about the Rika I have is that it is really cant sensitive. 1/2 of a degree off in cant (Rika can tell you if your cant changes) in smallbore could move a shot out as far as the 8-ring. I did find that I was paying a lot closer attention to my cant in the match than I would normally have. It couldn't have hurt.
I plan to make it back to the Olympics in 2004. The only way I'm going to get there is a lot of hard work, and the use of important tools like the Rika. If anyone has any questions, let me know either on this bulletin board or by e-mailing me directly.
Eric
PS. I don't work for Scott. He is a friend, and I thought all of his customers would appreciate a little bit of candid information about both the Rika and the Steyr LG100.
PSS. Sandra, my wife shoots pistol on the Rika. If you have any questions for her about using the Rika, you can also reply to this message, or to my e-mail.
Posted by Larry Sawyer on February 24, 2001 at 16:44:38:
Eric's comments about using the RIKA trainer were well stated, and reveal the immense value to using an electronic trainer. I would like to add my thoughts.
I also recently got a trainer, although I purchased (leased) a Noptel. I wish to amend Eric's statement that there are only three types available-- the Noptel makes it four. I have been using the Noptel for two months now, and the feedback is amazingly helpful. I am convinced that the Noptel is telling me exactly what I'm doing right and wrong. And, its sensitivity perfectly mimics what happens at 50 meters.
Often, the Noptel is mentioned as the one people "would have bought, if not for the price". It is significantly more money than the RIKA, but there is some evidence that it is also more versatile. One notable difference is that the target can be placed anywhere, as it does not need to be plugged in.
I did a great deal of research before making my purchase, and now that I've used it, I know that it will do nearly anything I want to -- any target type, any distance, wind condition, etc.
The Noptel takes some knocks for being hard to use, and this is not deserved. I can walk into the range area of my basement, turn on the laptop, and I'm shooting sighters in less than two minutes. A couple of minutes later, and I'm zeroed, and shooting for record. If you have heard bad things about the Noptel, contact me I'll set the record straight. If anything, it is too sensitive, like the problem Eric had with cant. But we know that in real life, every little thing affects shot placement, and the Noptel doesn't let you get away with anything. It forces perfection.
Eric, we should figure out a way to shoot a prone match using our trainers!
(uh oh, now I've done it....)
Posted by Eric Uptagrafft on February 24, 2001 at 17:58:59:
Larry,
Sorry I failed to mention Noptel. I too have experience with that system. I guess I should have said "three good systems I could afford". There is no doubt that the Noptel is good. The fact that you can live shoot on it with a .22 out to 50 meters is a big plus. For my money, however, I would rather put the difference in price toward ammunition, updating equipment, or a nice Hawaiian vacation. Just my opinion.
Eric
Posted by Michael Ray on February 24, 2001 at 20:23:18:
:To my knowledge, there are three good systems on the market...Rika, SCATT, and Kurt. Due to the limitations of the other two systems (you have to use them at fixed distances, 3m for Kurt, and 5 or 10m for SCATT) I opted for the Rika. This system can be used at any distance between 3 and 10 meters.
Some excellent comments from a top US shooter. I just wanted to add there is some degree of flexibility with a SCATT for those considering it as well as the RIKA. I have been using the SCATT at 50 feet (dry and live), which is well past the 10m (33') range it is supposed to be used at. This is about at its limit and may depend upon your lighting conditions but I know of 3 others who have done the same thing. I have not tried to see how close in I could use it.
I have not tried to correlate the score at the 50 feet distance but it still seems to be very close to reality. I'm sure if it bothered you that much, you could create a scaled target. Anyway, I use it mainly to view the trace and watch execution and follow through as Eric was pointing out, which is the big plus with these systems. It definitely adds a lot of value to dry-fire training.
Posted by Ed on February 24, 2001 at 21:20:17:
Not only is the cant very sensitive on the Rika, it is also backwards from live shooting. Where a cant to the left would cause a hit down and left for live fire, on the Rika the hit is off to the right. It is brought about by the distance of the bull above the transmitter diodes. If you move the bull lower (closer to the diodes), you can minimize the effect.
Ed
Posted by Walter on February 25, 2001 at 13:26:12:
I am happy to see the feedback on the RIKA system...
I am a air and smallbore shooter and I have been keeping my eye out for a training systems. To my knowledge there are 5 training systems. We have Noptel, Scatt, Curt, Rika and finally Sam Trainer.
I've never tried any of these systems but I assume that the best one out there must be the Noptel, which is made by a Finnish company. The negative thing about the Noptel is that it costs too much so I kind of erased it from my 'wish list'. Now...I have 4 left to choose from. I've read that the Curt has to be shot at a fixed distance (which I don't really like), but maybe it's a good system. The Sam Trainer seem to be the cheapest of them all and to my knowledge it can be shot to a distance up to 10 meter.
I think some of the systems haven't been modified for the last year (I believe). I was thinking of the software...it seems that a few of them have bugs. It also seems like most of you people giving feedback on electronic systems don't seem to be very satisfied with your buy. That makes me more pessimistic about buying any system.
Well, I’ve been thinking of which training system to buy, but it seems to be very hard to choose. Especially if you aren't able to try them out first.
I hope people can keep writing about their experiences on different systems. Also if anyone wants to send me some screenshot from different systems it would be appreciated. Maybe also the prices to different systems
Have a good day
PS.
Here are some links to the different training systems:
http://www.scatt.com/english/default.asp
http://www.rika1.com/
http://www.knestel.de/english/samtrain.htm
http://www.sfab.fsrskytte.se/curt/
Posted by Michael Ray on February 26, 2001 at 09:16:24:
: : I think some of the systems haven't been modified for the last year (I believe). I was thinking of the software...it seems that a few of them have bugs. It also seems like most of you people giving feedback on electronic systems don't seem to be very satisfied with your buy. That makes me more pessimistic about buying any system.
I don't know why you have that impression. Most everyone I've seen posting on trainers have been positive. They are excellent tools. Like anything you buy, including your firearms, each will have it's own quirks that some may find annoying, but they still perform more than adequately.
Anyway, from what I gather, this is my take on the 5 trainers available:
Noptel - very nice and flexible but very expensive (~$2500 US)
RIKA - very similar to SCATT now. While I haven't compared them back to back, they have many similar features and cost about the same. I've been told SCATT software is much better overall but don't know that for a fact. It has however, been on the market for more than 10 years so it should be pretty mature. (~$1000)
SCATT - Oldest trainer I'm aware of (10+ years). Had a major hardware update in 98 and software continues to be updated. Similar to the RIKA, but cannot show cant. Lightest sensor. (~$1000)
CURT - Frankly I don't know why anyone would use one today. You're limited to dry fire only at 3-4m target range and it costs more than SCATT/RIKA. (~$1400)
SAM - their web site claimed it was dry fire only as well, which may not matter to you. Don't know much about it since I don't know of any US importer though I'd guess either Neil Johnson or ISS could get it for you since AHG markets them.
Bottom line - unless you have $$$, go with SCATT/RIKA. As Ed mentioned, you can download the software from their sites to see what each is like. I'm not sure if RIKA has sample files, but you can get some from SCATT.
Note there are 2 distinct versions of SCATT software now (16 and 32 bit). They are quite different. The 32 looks better but they took some of the flexibility out of the options you had (it's still in beta). They did make zeroing the sensor easier though, which is important for me since I use it for my whole team. If it were just for me, it wouldn't matter much. I have been in contact with their developer, so we'll see if he puts some of the stuff back. He seemed quite receptive to get such thorough feedback.
So just like Eric is available to answer questions regarding the use of RIKA, I'll be happy to answer any SCATT ones you have.
Posted by EdH on February 25, 2001 at 14:41:11:
If you would like to see screen images of what the software shows, there are sample files as well as the latest software at several of the sites. You can download and actually see what the program does from at least the SCATT and RIKA sites.
I've had my Rika for about 3-4 months now. I've been pretty pleased with what it shows. The few items I'm disappointed with are minor. A minor example, the default area for the "number of shots list" comes up for 30 shots and more. I have to use _two_ mouse clicks to choose 10 shots. _Real Minor!_ A little bit more annoying, is that the main reason I use 10 shots is because some of the advanced data for more than one string, puts up more targets on the screen at once. This makes it difficult to impossible to see some of it for .22 shots on a larger target.
I would like to point out that what I see on the Rika is what I witnessed during the shot. The Rika retains the trace and gives me a solid look at the overall sequence of events. In seeing this, I have actually been able to be become more aware of what's happening during the shot. In a way the Rika has shown me how to better "see" my dry fire. I've kind of said to myself recently, that if I could have seen my dry fire activity this acutely before, I might not have needed the Rika...
If I have any real disappointment, it manifests itself during those times when I can't "correct" something that I don't like when looking at the shot playback. This is probably where a coach would be beneficial. Someone who could say, "This is what you need to do to change that."
EdH
Posted by Bill Kelley on February 28, 2001 at 12:49:31:
I don't work for Scott, either! But I can say without any reservation that the RIKA trainer does everything that it claims to do. We got ours at Navy when they first arrived last year and we've been very pleased with it from day one. I agree with Eric that the value gained from shooting without recoil is immense and that the feedback you get while doing that on a RIKA is invaluable.
We have been able to isolate small technical problems more quickly and build shooters' confidence when they see how the changes they make translate into improved holds and better scores.
We looked into several other trainers before we got the RIKA (CURT, SCATT, NOPTEL) and we have not been disappointed with our choice.
(NOTE TO SCOTT: I'll expect the usual commission rate on RIKA sales! :-) )
Bill Kelley
Head Rifle Coach
USNA
Sponsored by Pilkington Competition Equipment