Posted by Patrick Sween on February 21, 2001 at 11:27:23:
I've been shooting AP with the IZH-46M since December, and for the first two months I noticed a nice steady increase in average score. I now seem to have reached a plateau at about 87% and am looking for training ideas to get over the hump.
My immediate goal is to work up to a consistent 90% in the next few months. I've read all the interviews, the Nygord Notes, etc., and have a few ideas, but I'd like to hear from other semi-serious shooters about what they use.
My biggest problem seems to be consistency in trigger control. My hold area has settled down to about the 9 ring, but I tend to throw about one shot on every target out to the 6 or 7 ring, usually at about the 8 or 9 o'clock position. My inclination is to do a lot more dry fire and blank target practice to work on the trigger control. Are there any other ideas I should try?
I've also noticed that compared to my earlier shooting, my groups have steadily shifted to the left on the target. I don't want to adjust the sights, because when I do fire a very good technical shot the result is a 10. Could this also be bad trigger work, "pushing" the shot to the left (I'm right handed) just as the shot breaks? Thanks to any and all who can help me get these bugs worked out!
Patrick Sween
Posted by Paul G. Faini on February 21, 2001 at 12:30:32:
:Patrick Why not download the US Army Marksmanship Unit's Pistol Training Guide? It's at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Dreyer_infonet/amu-pmtg.htm
Good Luck, Paul
Posted by Joe Matusic, MD on February 21, 2001 at 13:12:45:
You have partially answered your own question.
You can break down a firing sequence into a series of steps. Each one of those steps must be done correctly or an error results. Some steps done consistently wrong give consistent shot patterns. It can be as simple as raising the gun up to a different level before lowering it into the target. The varying height will result in varying muscle fatigue as you lower the gun, leading to a dispersed shot placement. Write down your entire firing sequence in as detailed a way as possible. Next start recording where every shot goes and what you feel the reason for that shot being off was. You should notice patterns over time. You should also record what you did that worked to remedy the problem so that you will readily know how to fix it in the future. It might help those here give you a specific recommendation if you give your firing sequence and then what the results are (pattern of errant shots) and then your ideas on the subject. You mostly did that above. I had a IZH-46 also and, though the trigger is good, the triggers on the moderate to higher end PCPs are significant improvements.
Are you using the 6 o'clock hold?
Are you meticulous in your grip placement?
Are you raising your gun to the target in a consistent manner each time?
Do you fire at approximately the same number of seconds after raising the gun?
Is there any lateral play in your trigger?
Are you using the exact same foot placement?
What are you doing with your off hand?
Do you have any eye strain that could lead to squinting?
Are you consistently focusing on the front sight blade?
Just a few examples.
Any problems with the trap so far?
The army marksmanship page is good. You will learn some things, but I am not sure how much it will help if you are already this good. The book by Yer Yev may be your next step or the video on 10m pistol that Pellethead has.
Joe
Posted by Patrick Sween on February 21, 2001 at 16:52:44:
Thanks for the reply. To add a few more details: I have the grip adjusted and sanded to where I feel that my grip is consistent. I'm putting my off hand hooked on my belt buckle. I have foot positions marked in tape on the floor, so that's not changing. I start with the gun down, eyes closed, then raise the gun to the target and open my eyes while taking a deep breath. If the shot isn't off by the time I make a mental count to 5, I abort and start over. It seems that the big variable is how I handle the trigger, so I guess that's where to put the effort. I think the idea of noting on paper the details of the sight picture and the placement will be helpful, so I'll give that a go as well.
Patrick Sween
P.S. The trap is working out wonderfully!
Posted by David Levene on February 21, 2001 at 18:38:24:
Several points from your posting:-
Beware of marking your feet position on the floor and slavishly following it. Any change in body tension (e.g. caused by a bad day at work) will bring the arm up into a different position. Check your feet positioning every time you have moved them.
Why are you closing your eyes whilst raising the gun to shoot. Keep them open and look at the sights. The only time when you MIGHT want to close your eyes when raising the gun is when you are checking your position. I stress the word "might" as there is now some considerable opinion that, by closing your eyes, you will affect your balance which could alter the raise position of the gun. Much better to keep them open but "in neutral".
Try not to use the term "deep breath". Full breath is more appropriate as it implies less strain. It is probably better for most people to have their lungs less than half full when actually releasing the shot as you need to avoid either holding a full breath or gasping for air.
I am not too keen on this idea of a mental count. It could lead to a "shoot now" mentality with the resulting trigger release problems. Much better to decide that you are going to shoot smoothly and positively and remember that as soon as you think that you have been on aim for too long, you probably have so abort the shot.
It sounds like you have already decided that most of your bad shots are down to poor trigger control. No surprise there, join 95% of pistol shooters (whatever their standard). IMHO, continually concentrating on a smooth and positive release will help most shooters. What do I mean by positive? Difficult to define but somewhere between rushing and hanging around, maybe slightly quicker than the mid-point (if that makes sense).
You talked about improving from 87% to 90%. I have not worked it out but would imagine that a reduction of group size in the region of 2mm would give that improvement with ease. That is not going to happen overnight but, if you wanted to do it over a period of 10 weeks, that is only an average reduction of 0.2mm per week. Not such a big hurdle is it. Make your goals realistic and achievable and they suddenly become easier.
Good shooting.
Posted by Patrick Sween on February 22, 2001 at 10:42:15:
I spent a lot of time dry firing last night, and I played with the trigger position. I did find that reducing the length of pull a bit tended to remove the "pushing" tendency. I am still throwing some to the left, but I think that may be over-holding and forcing the shot after my hold has deteriorated significantly. My mental count isn't a hard and fast rule, but more of a guideline to try and prevent the over-holding. If the shot breaks earlier that's better, but if I find myself still holding towards the end of the count it most likely will be a bad shot and I'll pull it down.
As to the eyes shut, I wear contacts and I was finding that my vision would blur long before my hold deteriorated. I keep my eyes shut while the gun is at rest, take three relaxed, full breaths, and hold the last one as the gun is coming up. I open my eyes and acquire the front site as the gun comes up. I try to do everything in a kind of cadence. Each of the three breaths is 2 counts (inhale, exhale), the gun raise is on count 5, into the hold area on 6, and if the shot hasn't broken by 10, pull it down and start over. It seems to help me focus to have the count running in my head all the time.
I'm also working on a more deliberate trigger pull, but still straight back. I think that will come with more dry fire practice.
Thanks for all the advice everyone! I really appreciate it. I know the 90% (and perhaps beyond, eventually) will come, I just wanted to make my practice/training as efficient as possible.
Patrick Sween
Posted by Larry Lohkamp on February 22, 2001 at 01:09:05:
Groups can move because sights drift and are sometimes affected by changes in lighting and range surfaces. You should keep that in mind during troubleshooting so that you don't waste a lot of time fixing technique problems that don't exist. They put screws in adjustable sights for you to use. I spent nearly 2 months last year trying to fix a 'problem' that was finally solved by a few clicks of windage.
There are two possibilities for a group to be at 9:00. The most common is placement of the trigger finger on the shoe. Trigger finger placement can go bad even when you haven't consciously changed it. It is quite likely that your grip of the pistol has changed since you started shooting and what may have been a straight back pull then, has now shifted to a push left. Seeing the push with iron sights is a challenge, while a laser or dot sight excels at revealing minute motion during dry firing. I don't know of a dot that can be put on the 46, but you may be able to borrow a laser from a spray-n-pray shooter for a while and tape it to the air cylinder. I suppose a laser pointer might do the same thing.
The second possibility is a bit insidious. After trying every square millimeter of available finger and finally moving the sights, only to see the group drift off to the left, I developed some novel theories of bullet paths through quantum space. My purchase of an IZH-35 got rid of the problem, which got me to thinking the crown was damaged on my Ruger. One day I moved the trigger forward so that it felt more like the Ruger. My groups promptly moved left and refused to come back. I shifted the trigger to the rear and the problem disappeared. The first thing that I did with my 46 was to move the trigger back so that my stubby little hands can get a good angle on the trigger.
Have fun and be happy you are improving so fast. I'd be happy with an 87 with my 46. Unfortunately, I think that I'm going to have to get one of those telescopes for my shooting glasses so that I can see the front sight clearly.
Larry Lohkamp
Posted by Carl Weston DDS on February 22, 2001 at 09:45:03:
Hey Pat,
Well if your shooting in the high 80's after just 2 months congrats is in order. I thing you have talent. I think you’ll find as I have that the better you get the harder it becomes to get just a little be better. That what makes the sport so fun. I would suggest you find someone good in your area and have them coach you. You really need a mentor to help. Sometimes you can be making a mistake and not realize it. There are several books out to help. Shooting is a mental game and all the tricks with mental imaging and realization work.
good luck. Carl
Posted by Ed on February 22, 2001 at 16:13:24:
A comment on the closing of your eyes first. Did you read Appendix A in the USAMU Manual? It discusses to great length all the intricate details of the eye including blinking often to keep the eye moist (important for contacts) and trying to keep the same light level so the minute muscles that control dilation aren't overworked.
Second, I was priveleged to receive a seminar a couple of years ago from Mr. Bill Blankenship of Bullseye fame. He won the Nationals 6 times (5 in a row) and shot lots of world class events in his day. One of the things he said that made an impression on me was to be very concerned with how the pistol settles. There is a particular way that everything settles for a good shot. If you pay close attention, you can identify those times when everything settles "correctly." If you don't see this "correct" settling, abort the shot.
Along the same line as above, if during your shot process, _anything_ causes you to question the shot, abort it. NEVER correct anything - Stop and start again from the beginning. If you wonder if you've taken too long - abort. If you wonder if the sight is a little left - abort. If you wonder... - abort.
A last thought: If you are having most of your shots going into a group, but there seems to be a flyer now and then - leave it alone. Don't look for the reason for occasional mistakes. You're just highlighting them. Look for the reasons that make the shots group - It's a more positive approach. If your group is a little off center, don't assume you're messing up to have it there. Go ahead and adjust the sights. You can always move them back later...
Ed
Posted by Bob LeDoux on February 22, 2001 at 20:46:27:
In Reply to: How to get over plateau? posted by Patrick Sween on February 21, 2001 at 11:27:23:
I shoot 10's if I do two things, your results may vary:
1. Apply a smooth trigger pull.
2. Keep my eye on the front sight until after the shot breaks.
I have recently discovered just how often I fail to do number 2. If I can't call my shot, because I don't know where the sights were, then I transferred by focus toward the target, often with a 7 or 8 score.
If the muzzle jumps, then I have failed to perform number 1.
Dry fire helps me with both problems.
I wish I could have shot your score after a couple of months.
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