Posted by Bob LeDoux on December 19, 2001 at 19:25:10:
It’s time to
replace my pellet trap. I originally bought a Marksman 2085 for $22 at Wal-Mart.
After 5000 shots from my pistol, it was so badly battered I had to but a
reinforcement plate in the back face.
I'm looking for recommendations for a
trap for Edelmann targets. The target must slide into place in the trap. I won't
put up with taping, spring clips, or cutting the target down to size--I do too
much shooting for those extra efforts. I also want a metal trap because I don't
want to be continually removing ductseal from the putty type systems.
The
trap has to take continuous operation without deterioration.
Ideas, please.
What about Nygord's trap? P.S. Scott doesn't have anything listed on
his website.
Posted by Jerry on December 20, 2001 at 09:12:37:
I have a gehmann trap
that I use outdoors and a Matusic trap that I use indoors.
Pictures of the
Gehmann trap ( available at PCE ) and pictures of the trap at Nygord *seem* to
be identical. The Gehmann trap is available at about half of the cost of the
trap at Nygord's. What is the difference?
While I was awaiting the Matusic
trap I tried the Gehmann trap indoors; after shooting 10 shots at the target I
could actually smell a burning odor when I approached the trap. I would not
recommend a trap that could put lead dust/vapor into the air in an enclosed
enviroment.
When the Matusic trap arrived I found that the Edelmann targets
could be centered very easily by shortening one leg of a spring clip clothspin
and attaching the short leg of the clothspin to the clip on the clipboard. The
clothspin is wide enough to keep the target centered and square in the clipboard
opening.
With the duct seal trap the burning odor vanished.
I really hate
prying the pellets out of the gunk and resmoothing the stuff...There has to be
*something* less obnoxious and more durable than duct seal that can absorb the
energy of the pellet without vaporization or rebound. I remember a tire ad a
long time ago where the pitchman dropped a "rubber" ball on the ground and there
was no bounce...
--Jerry
Posted by R.M on December 19, 2001 at 19:36:40:
I don't know if my Nygord
trap is typical, but Edelmann targets are a bit bigger than the slot in the
trap. It's not an issue for me as I have a return system that holds the targets.
The trap is just to catch the pellets.
It seems to be a decent enough trap.
The odd pellet come back out, but not far.
The backstop plate, which is about
3/16" thick, does suffer. It gets a dish pounded in it. If you turn it around,
the dish will get pushed back in.
If you're looking for the perfect trap,
this isn't it. I'm happy enough with mine, but I'm not as fussy as the average
Joe.
Posted by Richard Ashmore on December 19, 2001 at 21:16:39:
I have one of
the traps that Don Nygord sells. I love it- it is very sturdy and holds Edelman
targets. I don't think it'll ever wear out
Posted by Matt Summers on December 19, 2001 at 23:31:30:
I too have a
Nygord trap; it is sized perfectly for the Edelmann targets. When I first used
the trap, I was sending pellets downrange at about 525 fps and was experiencing
a good deal of splatter and lead dust. I ended up removing the spring behind the
steel plate in the trap and putting in about 5 pounds of duct seal. The duct
seal catches any pellets outside of the clump which builds up in the 8/9/10
ring. Every 500 pellets or so I pry out the lead mass, and if I'm really feeling
up to it I'll squeeze the duct seal back towards the center. Within the 8 ring
at the back of the trap I've a kind of thin lead sheet (from the 30K+ pellets
this trap has caught) to which subsequent pellets stick.
I have been
seriously been considering one of Doc Matusic's traps, and putting a steel plate
behind the putty. (http://www.babymd.net) They look to hold more spent
pellets...
Oh, and even if something isn't listed on Pilkguns.com, CALL
Scott/Warren/Rhonda. I've come to the conclusion that they have much more
inventory than just that on the web site.
Posted by Charlie on December 20, 2001 at 00:58:55:
Hi Bob, My experience
is very similar to Matt's.
Been using several Nygord traps for years with
the following observations. Rugged, no deformation of backstop plate, Edelmann
targets fit perfectly.
One of the originals had a backplate that didn't fit
well and Don replaced it along with a little goodie for my trouble. Never had a
ricochet or bounceback but an occasional pellet would fall out. After approx.
100 shots some of the pellets start welding themselves to the backplate and each
other but came off easily with a screwdriver. Most pellets go perfectly flat.
DUST: If Dr. Matusic is reading this he's probably hyperventilating so I'll
save him some typing. Instead of removing the impact spring like Matt did I just
spread two one pound bars of duct seal onto the impact plate-sticks quite
nicely. After about 500 shots the pellets bulge forward towards the target. It
takes less than two minutes to remove the lump, WASH YOUR HANDS and smooth the
seal from the outer perimeter towards the center area. About every 3,000 pellets
add a little seal back to the backplate. There is no reason to be creating lead
dust. A few dollars for soft impact technology ( paper, towels , duct seal ) and
a few minutes for hand scrubbing is a lot cheaper than bloodwork, especially if
you have children. Having operated a large indoor range and having employees
banned from range duty was a real wakeup call.
Conclusion: It's a great
little trap. Have Don inspect it before shipping to make sure the targets fit
well and everything is in order. Use duct seal, either with or without the
impact spring. Should last a lifetime. My oldest one has approx. 5000 pellets
without duct seal and 10,000 with. The folks at Pilkguns may also have
something, nice that there are several folks that you can trust in this
business.
Posted by Bubba on December 20, 2001 at 07:58:05:
Been using one of them
big ole Outters traps for years. Has a spring clip to hold target, but holds the
Edelmans fine. Not a lead dust catcher. But as it is rated for a .22 long rifle,
it certainly will last. I attached a piece of closed cell foam, from an old life
jacket, to the back, using silicon adhesive to quiet dampen the ringing sound
when the pellet hits the sheeet steel. I like the larger face area, as I anm not
the best of shots. If lead safety is a concern, this is not the trap for you.
Used out of doors, it is big enough to take some of the larger targets. I use it
with a reduced diameter 50 ft slow fire pistol target, BVR targets, and indoors
for 10m. You wont wear it out.
Respectfully,
Bubba
Posted by Bob LeDoux on December 20, 2001 at 19:48:23:
My Marksman trap
created a dusting of grey powder on the carpet (ritzy gallery, eh?) below its
shelf. So I took a caulking gun and sealed the gaps. Duct tape went over the
open holes, and I started putting corrogated cardboard backers behind the
targets. That did a good job of cutting back on the dust.
I am flabbergasted
by the amount of lead dust that somes from the Outers trap when shooting free
pistol at 50 feet. I may move it back just to reduce the lead debris.
Posted by PGFaini on December 20, 2001 at 21:17:44:
Try cleaning the trap
to remove all traces of dust, and shoot a bit at it without any target. You may
discover, by its absence, that the "lead dust", is actually pulverized target
paper. The grey, is the molecular transfer, as the lead wipes off on the paper.
Due to its high atomic weight and malleability, it's doubtful, that lead dust or
fumes, are much of a health hazard. Of course, there will be lead particles, but
not so fine as to be called "dust" which infers an ability to become
airborne...I was privvey to the results of the NYPD study back in the seventies,
investigating the high lead level found in the range air, and circulatory
systems of our range officers. It was finally concluded, that the cause wasn't
the lead bullets, but the lead styphnate primers. This wasn't until after we'd
contracted DuPont to develop heat-resistant (Teflon coated) bullets, in an
attempt to reduce the lead levels. As with all ammunition, we tested them on
bullet resistant glass and Lexan, and Kevlar vests. They went through the vests
like a hot knife through butter, someone leaked this to the Daily News, and the
whole "Killer Bullet" non-issue, erupted in the media. I say non-issue, because
the only supplies of these Teflon bullets, were in the hands of DuPont and the
NYPD, they never being released to the general public. ....Lead has to be heated
to red heat, before it converts to litharge, and gives off fumes. I believe,
that the "burning odor" observed by one of our posters, was in fact, oil, paint,
or both, not the pellet lead. The velocity of lead bullets, and especially air
gun pellets, is not high enough to vaporize them, and as I said, the high atomic
weight of lead, makes it a poor candidate for an airborne particulate. Just
another case of "Junk Science" overcoming common sense. I've never seen any
documentation regarding the results of testing for lead particulates (not fumes
caused by primers) in air, and would appreciate the opportunity to obtain such
as are available. I'll now wait for the inevitable rebuttals this unpopular view
will bring.....Paul
Posted by Joe Matusic, MD on December 22, 2001 at 12:59:33:
I am a board
certified pediatrician and assistant professor of pediatrics for your reference.
I think you are very mistaken in your downplaying of the hazards of lead. I
do agree that some of the lead "dust" could be target particulates or lead dust
rubbing off on the paper, but a significant amount of lead will still be
contaminating the environment in the form of lead particles, flakes etc, when
shooting into metal targets. The lead on the floor gets carried all over the
house on the shoes and fingers. It’s inevitable that the lead could find its way
into the body. I saw a buddy shooting into a gamo metal trap outside a few years
ago. He only fired 10-15 pellets into the trap. I was amazed at how much and how
fine the lead particles were that were in the bottom of the trap. You comment of
lead dust or fumes being of little risk is also incorrect. You only absorb a
small percentage of ingested lead, while you absorb the majority of the inhaled
lead. Most cases of lead poisoning in children are not from ingesting lead paint
chips like we all used to think, its from inhaling lead dust from deteriorating
pain or inhaling lead fumes from lead candle wicks. I have been testing all of
my patients for the last 2 year due to a state mandate (not just by risk
factors). I have seen a few interesting elevations. One child had a level of 26
(cut off 10, hospitalize at 30) and his only known source was the mother burning
lead wicked candles (several at once daily for months). The other was a child
who had a level in the low 20s. The only source we could find was that he was
handling lead pellets that morning and didn't wash his hands before the exam. We
took a finger stick and got an elevated level. When we repeated the level via a
regular blood draw in the arm, the level was zero.
I too had difficulty
finding much in the medical literature on lead from shooting sports. There were
several references regarding lead poisoning in indoor target firearms ranges in
California (one mentioned that the air quality was part of the problem, but a
bigger problem was sweeping up the lead causing lead dust to be inhaled and this
causing lead poisoning), many references of guys smelting their own lead and
either getting lead poisoning or death. One other example was right here in the
capitol of WV. A few years ago, they were remodeling the governors mansion. Some
workers became ill and had to be hospitalized. It turned out to be lead
poisoning from inhaling the demolition dust from walls painted with layers of
lead paint.
Please read my article on lead safety for airgunners on my web
site http://www.babymd.net/aa.htm One other thought. Some new laws are on the
books in several states requiring testing older houses for lead at sale. Some
laws only require a declaration that you are unaware of lead contamination or
the use of lead paint. If your house is found to be contaminated with lead you
will be very unhappy with the cost of lead abatement.
Posted by PGFaini on December 22, 2001 at 14:27:59:
Joe, I thank you for
this response. The purpose of my post, was to stimulate discussion of this
matter. I completely agree with you regarding the detrimental effects of
absorbed lead, whether by ingestion or inhalation. My dad was a house painter,
and there was mentioned at home, the problem of "Painter's Disease", absorbed
lead, which manifested itself as a dark area, visible at the gum line. Due to
your profession, I'm sure you've got access to data not available to us
non-medical people. What I find a problem with, is the assumption that firing
into a steel bullet trap, produces airborne lead dust, or fumes. I believe that
any "dust" would be a product of the target paper being pulverized between the
pellet face and the steel plate. This dust will have an amount of transferred
lead on it, which may or may not be, enough to settle it quickly. The "fume"
factor, I find a non-issue, lead being a relatively inactive metal, requiring
either high temperature, strong acid, or galvanic action, to reduce it to a
soluable, such as litharge (lead monoxide). I believe the boiling (vaporization)
point of lead is 2777ºF, A temperature the energy of a pellet hitting the steel
plate,would never generate, even for a micro second. My taking any sort of a
position on this matter, has been brought about by the anti-gun forces,
attempting to use a "back-door" approach in an attempt to negatively affect the
shooting sports, by having lead declared a toxic substance, and banned from
general use and availability. This would have a severe impact on bullet making,
hunting, and even target shooting as we know it. I just want to be sure the data
they introduce, isn't taken at face value, without benefit of intelligent
discussion. If not, we'll be playing right into their hands. A law banning
shooting ranges, would be easy, in a climate where laws are introduced,
attempting to restrict or eliminate tobacco smoking in your own home, if a
neighbor complains.....Paul
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