Posted by Edwin on March 01, 2001 at 21:21:14:
This has been causing some
degree of apprehension to pcp owners and prospective ones on whether the pump
can cause damage to their guns or not because of the moisture that can come from
the pump. Just look at the post of Bob Gamble below. I think that it is high
time for the manufacturers of pcp guns to make a statement regarding this so
that the airgunning public may know.
Thanks,
Edwin
Posted by Richard Ashmore on March 02, 2001 at 04:27:22:
This is a good
time to note that BOTH Pilkington Competition Equipment and Nygord Precision
Products, the official warranty providers of Steyr and Pardini, as well as being
Feinwerkbau and Morini dealers, sell pumps. I can't imagine either of them
selling you a gun and a pump and later taking the position that the pump you
used voided the warranty.
Posted by Bob Gamble on March 02, 2001 at 12:16:53:
After my post about
the pump, I was contacted by Dani Navickas from Beeman. He said that he has
requested a clarification from FWB about the use of the pump and possible
repercussions it would have regarding the warranty and get back to me when there
was an answer.
As for posting this type of question on this forum, you just
never know who is lurking in cyber land. There are a lot of sources of
information out there. It turns out that there are industry representatives
checking out what is on this forum.
It seems to me that the pump, when used
correctly should be OK. Checking the air cylinders every 5 years or so would
increase the safety factor but would also increase cost and complication of
operating a PCP gun. As PCP guns in current service get older, the ISSF and USA
Shooting will eventually have to address this issue. Good luck to them.
As a
side note, it is good to see Bill Demarest on the forum.
Aloha,
Bob..
Posted by pilkguns on March 02, 2001 at 09:33:04:
For the record, Nygord
Precision Products is not an official warranty provider or sales agent for
Steyr-Mannlicher and hasn't been for over 2 years now. Nor for that matter, has
Pilkington Competition ever been a warranty station for Pardini.
As to pump
issue, long time readers of this board know that I was really the first to start
raising concerns about this issue. To that end, I took some tank inspection
courses, and started delving into the issue deeply. Moisture can be a problem,
whether you are using the pump or SCUBA air. The reason they have annual
inspections on SCUBA tanks is to look for moisture damage and/or stress
cracking. I have seen airgun cylinders that were full of rusty gunk caused by
moisture most likely induced by the pump. For this reason, this particular and
other manufacturers went to only stainless and aluminum cylinders. I personally
obtained some Steyr cylinders that belonged to Daryl Szarenski that were used
extensively with a pump in the humid area of FT Benning for about 3 years to see
what long term damage might have been present. I did find some corrosion inside
the cylinder with my inspection mirror and cut the cylinder in half to better
determine the safety concerns present. It was my determination that this
cylinder that had been extensively abused by a pump, i.e., never having used the
moisture trap blowoff, in a humid environment, while it had some corrosion
pitting forming, the depth was not enough to be safety issue for quite a number
of years.
However, I do believe it is an issue we should be concerned about
and I did make a proposal to ISSF to add to the equipment check, a cylinder date
check, to determine the age if beyond 5 years, then a statement of inspection
from the factory or other certified testing facility would be required but ISSF
deemed this issue not necessary to be included in the new rule book. Ce la Vie
I do believe, that IF the user of the pumps FOLLOW the directions and USE
the condensate blow off, then you will induce very little moisture if not none.
As to warranty issues, that is stated in most owners' manuals, and does not
include abuse. Quite frankly if I take apart a cylinder that was full of water
damage, I would consider that abuse, because the owner had not used the pump
properly.
This is just one of the major reason why I wish people would stay
away from CA, and stick with CO2, which is much better propellant 98% of the
time.
All the Best
Scott
Posted by Rudy on March 02, 2001 at 12:20:04:
I agree that compressed air
in airgun cylinders is as much an issue as compressed air in SCUBA tanks.
Judging by what you have said, it sounds like the prudent thing to do is to add
internal cylinder inspection to the routine maintenance of precharged guns, just
as it is part of the normal preventive maintenance of SCUBA gear. Do you agree
with that statement?
I don't think that's a big problem. How much would such
a service add to the already minimal cost of routine maintenance for precharged
guns, and can you do it?
Posted by Don Nygord on March 02, 2001 at 11:51:35:
While we still don't
have nearly the history yet that we have with CO2 and other airgun systems, CA
does not seem to be proving the threat to the shooting public some feared. I
remember when Edi Stockinger, the Steyr field rep who was working with me, told
me worriedly that Steyr was going to go to CA - "Don, there will be 3000 psi in
the cylinder!" Fortunately, with 1000s of guns in use now for several years
there have been no injuries with properly used and maintained guns. The cylinder
life question remains, of course. Every year at the IWA show in Nurnberg, I
interview all of the major makers as to their history over the past year with
cylinders that have been in use. Next week we will do so again. So far, the
reports have been very good - no evidence that cylinders are subject to life
shortening corrosion when treated correctly. While I have seen both CO2 and CA
cylinders with "gunk" in them, few have had moisture and so far none have
exhibited corrosion. This in no small part a result of the way the cylinders are
made - from high quality aluminum drawn, not welded, into tubes. Cylinders made
this way have good microscopic structure, fine surface finish and are corrosion
resistant. Many makers also use aluminum end fittings to reduce bimetallic
corrosion possibilities. Actually, the regulator, with several different metals
involved in its' make-up, and having small apertures will probably be affected
the most by excess moisture. Any piece of equipment can be abused and made
unsafe, but with prudent use CA, even when filled with a pump, is a safe and
viable system with several advantages over CO2.
Don Nygord
Posted by Larry Yien on March 02, 2001 at 12:51:14:
My Morini 162 came
with a Discharging tool, would discharging the cylinder aid in allowing moisture
to escape?
Larry Posted by Nicole Hamilton on March 04, 2001 at 23:56:15:
Presumably, if you're worried, that is the way to attack it. You're merely doing
what people do with other compressed air tanks to periodically drain any water.
Obviously, you'll need to hold the cylinder so it discharges from the bottom
since water is heavier than air and will have run to the bottom.
Even if you
don't have a special tool, you can discharge a cylinder easily enough if you
really want to. For example, if you have the hand pump, screw the cylinder on
all the way, then open the release on the pump. Or, if you don't have a pump,
screw a nipple onto the cylinder to open the valve.
Nicki
Posted by David M on March 04, 2001 at 17:48:28:
The big advantage of a
tank is you don’t have to pump, the big advantage of a pump is you can not fly
with a full tank. I own both, at home and local comps I use the tank, away
overseas I use the pump (usually the night before, never just before a
match).
As for CO2, there has been too many problems with it in tropical
temperatures to use it any more.
Sponsored by Pilkington Competition Equipment