Posted by Jeremy on March 03, 2001 at 05:55:25:
Can I use high speed ammo
(Remington Thunderbolt)on a Unique DES 69 pistol safely?
Are the 200 fps
above the speed of standard ammo damage my gun?
Posted by Nicole Hamilton on March 03, 2001 at 10:01:16:
Generally
speaking, high velocity ammunition is not recommended on any target
semi-automatic pistol. A lot of folks claim it tends to beat the hell out of the
action of the gun. How much risk there really is, I can't say from any personal
experience. There hardly seems to be any reason to take a chance.
I don't
believe there is any reason you can't safely use high velocity ammunition in a
target bolt action gun, however. In a bolt action, the issue of greater concern
is simply that high velocity ammunition isn't usually as accurate as standard
velocity and thus, would not normally be what anyone would choose for precision
shooting.
Nicki
Posted by PGFaini on March 03, 2001 at 14:32:33:
Jeremy, I've been a
target shooter and gunsmith for many years, and I've never heard of a modern
firearm of any kind, "beaten to death" by high speed 22RF ammo. As a matter of
fact, I've never seen or heard of any .22rf. firearm, even the old ones, meant
to be used with the original black powder loadings, suffering from it's use.
I've used high speed ammo, in both my Benelli MP 95, and IZH 35M, for many years
with no ill effects. Accuracy, and cleanliness, are another matter. The
Remington Thunderbolt, along with Winchester Wildcat, and Federal Lightning, are
"Promotional Ammo" usually sold near or at cost, by such retailers as Wal-Mart,
and K-Mart. They are manufactured using blended lots of different powders that
are found unsuitable for one reason or another, for loading their other grades
of ammo. This isn't to say they aren't safe to use, just that there is a wider
variation from lot to lot, regarding accuracy, and to a lesser degree, powder
residue. I've tested all three brands in my pistols using a Ramsom Rest, and
Oehler 35P Chronograph, and of the three, found the Federal Lightning the most
uniform. My Benelli, had a preference for Fiocchi V300 Super Match ammo, and
when they stopped importing Benelli RF ammo into the States, I bought everything
I could find, saved it for matches, and started looking for something to
practice with. I found that Federal Lightening, worked pretty well, and when I
tried one of the boxes I bought at Walmart, found it to be excellent. I went
back and bought up whatever they had left of the lot, almost three cases. 13,000
rounds, for either .79, or .88/box. I later found, when I started attending the
monthly PTO's at Wolf Creek, that Elisabeta Nishica, the Yugoslav Women’s Pistol
Champion, who along with Gary Anderson and Duane Tallman, sort of ran things
there, used Federal Lightening in her Woman’s Sport Pistol, not only for
practice, but in the PTO matches I saw her fire. And as I remember, she ran up
the highest scores I'd ever seen. Scott, do you remember? I only mention this to
validate why I'm sure the ammo is not only safe and economical, but can be
accurate in you r gun. Like pellets, if you find one that shoots well, try to
buy as much of that lot# as you can. But be advised, with promotional ammo, you
may have to be more diligent in keeping your gun free of powder fouling,
especially around the extractor recess. Now that Federal 711B is now made on the
same equipment as their 900B & 1000B, It's a real good buy. I spoke to a QC
Man at Federal, and asked him what the difference was, since I knew the 900B
& 1000B were the same except for QC levels. He said the 711B's were "Culls"
from 900B & 1000B production. I asked what they did when they didn't have
enough "culls" to meet 711B production, and he laughed! I just bought a case for
$171.00 at Mid South. ....Paul
Posted by Chris L in NC on March 04, 2001 at 15:51:02:
Not that I
personally know, but a few weeks ago I posted a simple question on the Walther
engineering forum (www.carl-walther.de) about what ammo is best for the GSP. Ray
of www.airgunsonly.com says he has been servicing GSPs for 15 years and HAS seen
some cracks from using high-velocity ammo. He highly recommended I stick with
standard or target. So my ammo cost will double, from $.02/round Remington
Golden Bullet at Wal-Mart to $.04/round Remington Target 22, also at Wal-Mart.
The manager special-ordered a case for me at no extra charge. So, look around
and you can find ammo you know is safe, and will likely group better, although
the two-cent Golden Bullet is not bad especially at 25m. Xs to all!
Posted by PGFaini on March 04, 2001 at 17:07:36:
Chris, Ray's comments
should be given credence, you can't argue with cracked slides. Strangely enough,
when I contacted EAA two years ago, about feeding and ejection problems with my
Benelli, they advised me to use only high speed ammo! The problem turned out to
be a defective extractor, but I think it strange given Ray's comment. I guess
each gun is different, the Benelli having a resiliant buffer for the slide to
strike. As to the price per round, $1.77/box for 711B's is only .035/rd....Paul
Posted by DaveP on March 04, 2001 at 23:36:00:
I'm afraid that any
importer who suggests putting HV in a European target gun is clutching at
straws. No European shooter would consider using HV any more than he'd consider
trying to run his BMW on kerosene.
Posted by Nicole Hamilton on March 03, 2001 at 19:28:25:
Now that Federal
711B is now made on the same equipment as their 900B & 1000B, It's a real
good buy. I spoke to a QC Man at Federal, and asked him what the difference was,
since I knew the 900B & 1000B were the same except for QC levels. He said
the 711B's were "Culls" from 900B & 1000B production. I asked what they did
when they didn't have enough "culls" to meet 711B production, and he laughed! I
just bought a case for $171.00 at Mid South. ....Paul
Okay, let's try again,
hopefully better formatted ...
Anything's possible, I guess, but according
to Federal's ballistics figures, 711B is more like 900 than 900B:
Federal
Load # Velocity in Feet per Second
(to nearest 10
FPS)
Muzzle 25
Yds. 50
Yds. 75
Yds.
100
Yds.
UM1 1140 1090
1040 1000 970
UM1B 1080 1030 1000 960 930
900 1140 1090 1040 1000
970
900B 1080 1030 1000 960 930
711 1150 1090 1050 1010
970
Federal
Load # Energy in Foot-Pounds
(to nearest 5
foot-pounds)
Muzzle 25
Yds. 50
Yds. 75
Yds. 100
Yds.
UM1 115
105 95 90 80
UM1B
105 95
90 80 75
900 115 105 95 90 80
900B 105
95 90 80 75
711 115 105 95 90 80
Federal
Load # Wind Drift in
Inches
(10 MPH crosswind)
25
Yds. 50
Yds. 75
Yds.
100
Yds.
UM1 0.3 1.2 2.6 4.5
UM1B 0.3 1.2 2.6 4.5
900 0.3 1.2 2.6
4.5
900B 0.3 1.2 2.6 4.5
711 0.3 1.2 2.6 4.5
Federal
Load # Height
of bullet trajectory in inches
above or below line of sight if zeroed at ˜
yards.
Sights 1.5 inches above bore line
25
Yds. 50
Yds. 75
Yds.
100
Yds.
UM1 0.2 ˜ -2.2 -6.6
UM1B 0.3 ˜ -2.4 -7.2
900 0.2
˜ -2.2
-6.6
900B 0.3 ˜ -2.4 -7.2
711 0.2 ˜ -2.2 -6.4
Nicki
Posted by Richard Ashmore on March 04, 2001 at 05:45:01:
Since one of the
goals of .22 SY ammo is generally subsonic muzzle velocity, it makes sense that
the 900 line culls, the ones that sampled too fast, would go out as
711B.
Eley does the same thing with out of spec TENEX, it goes out as Match
Extra Plus.
Posted by PGFaini on March 03, 2001 at 22:35:10:
Nicole, The 711B's are
easy to identify, having the same Russian dimpled head as the 900A/B, and
1000A/B. Federal pays royalties to the Russians, who brought out this design in
their Olympic ammo. The dimple is purported to direct the primer flash towards
the front of the case, for more uniform ignition. This in my opinion is of
dubious value, given the mass of the primer flash in such a small case volume.
The velocity marked on the box is 1080FPS, the same as is marked on the 900B
boxes... MidSouth sells 711B for $1.77/ box, the same as the old 711 ammo. I got
a 3% volume discount on a case. They're also carried by Champion's Choice,
another Tennessee mail order company. I'm working on a Ransom Rest adapter for
my TOZ, and when it's finished, will do some accuracy and velocity (SD's) tests,
comparing it with 900B. I prefer Federal, as I no longer use Eley ammo, for
political reasons...Paul
Posted by Nicole Hamilton on March 03, 2001 at 23:49:39:
Yeah, I should
know better. I shoot 711B for practice in my Pardini specifically because the
711 doesn't feed very well. But I confess I had taken for granted that others
who'd insisted to me that 711 and 711B had the same ballistics actually knew
what they were talking about. Looking at the box, I see you're right, 711B is
marked 1080 fps, same as 900B.
Nicki
Posted by CR on March 03, 2001 at 20:30:47:
Sorry, but the data shown is
for 711 not 711B. I have chrono both and the 711B matches 900B not 900 or 711
out of all 3 of my .22s. I can only assume the Federal site hasn't been updated
with 711B. There is a difference between 711 and 711B (at least in the lots that
I have sampled). 711B is still somewhat rare in certain areas of the country.
For example: It was reported to me that Grices, a pretty large supplier in the
NE, told one customer he had never heard or seen any 711B.
Posted by Scott H. on March 03, 2001 at 17:37:54:
In a pistol barrel, the
velocity difference between standard and HV ammo is not great, and you could
probably use it without harm. . . .BUT: You've got a great gun there. Why not
treat it to a little better ammo than Thunderbolts?
Posted by Warren on March 03, 2001 at 20:22:31:
I'd second that. I HAVE
seen some older European guns with cracked slides and slide housings. Unlike
American target guns, which are designed to use plinker ammo (high vel),
European guns are specifically designed for standard velocity. Yes, you can
argue that in such a short barrel the velocity isn't much different. But it sure
feels heftier in felt recoil (maybe because of a faster burning powder), and if
it's bottoming out a slide it won't be doing it a world of good. Why bother when
you can get consistent standard velocity ammo at good prices?
Posted by
Marcus on March 06, 2001 at 22:01:46:
Thunderbolt from results from my
Benelli mp90s is not a high velocity cartridge! Tested with a Chrony in
Benelli's 4.3 inch barrel and got a 10 round avg. of 885 fps. Remington
sub-sonic got 10 round avg. of 924 fps. Federal High Velocity Hollow Point got
10 round avg. of 1053 fps. I can get 1/2 inch groups off sandbags with $.89 per
box Thunder -bolt and mp90s, well guess what I shoot? Hope this helps.
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