Posted by Ken J on July 18, 2001 at 22:04:26:
Folks,
I briefly want
to address the whole 10.9 thing. I want to know what people think about a theory
I have. (Not a truth yet)
An athlete can imagine shooting a 10.9. Fine.
That's not my point.
My point is that to win a match by performing, an
athlete has sought to improve the probability of shooting a ten on each shot.
(That's about as hard-core as I get in lingo-ology).
I have defined to myself
what a "10" is. Yours may be different. A ten to me, in defining it when looking
through the sights, is "stability in a region". My point is that 1- I'm not
looking to see a perfect 10.9 through my sights as I'm pulling the trigger. I'm
looking to see stability.
The word stability as I use it does not mean lack
of movement. It means a type of movement were all extraneous movements have
ceased. I know, I know, what the hell is an extraneous movement, right? That's
for you to find out. My point is that a shooter should shoot within his/her
hold. It won't be there long. It may not be total lack of motion. That's OK.
Chet's and my point is that if you seek to dress up the shot any more, you've
already lost it. He calls it QZ with a squiggly thing. I call it shooting when
you're most stable.
So what do you think? Improve the probability of shooting
the best your body is capable of? Shoot when you're most stable? Any other
ideas?
Ken J
Posted by STL William on July 19, 2001 at 13:07:44:
I definitely agree
with you! Shoot when you in your particular stable period and don't worry. I
made a post similar to that a while back. So figure out your steady hold be it a
10.4 hold or 9.5 or even 7.0 and just shoot it. So simple, so easy, and so
focused on the most important thing; holding still.
As with the 10.9's at all
but Olympic levels deep tens do not matter. And if you were a shooter who shot
all 10.0's nothing higher and nothing lower, I believe that you would have won
every big match this year. (I don't remember any 700+'s this year in air and
certainly no 1300+'s in small) Shoot within YOUR hold.
William
Posted by David Levene on July 20, 2001 at 02:40:17:
There have actually
been 4 700+ in World Cups this year but that does nothing to detract from your
point.
Now if you could just improve to scoring 10.1 on every shot..........
Wouldn't it be boring.
Posted by STL William on July 21, 2001 at 10:21:34:
Sorry guys, don't
know why I didn't remember that. I'll have to stop responding to posts when I
first get up in the morning.
10.1 wouldn't be boring you would have just set
a new world record! But I know what you mean. I personally am a very boring
shooter. I've shot whole matches literally with nothing lower than a 9.5 but
nothing higher than a 10.2.(never used elec. scoring but that is exactly what it
looked like)
Posted by Andy Wai on July 19, 2001 at 16:15:48: Isn't the current air rifle
final world record shot this year? I think it's 702.4. Andy Wai Posted by D.Lee
on July 20, 2001 at 17:13:21:
Great responses! But I feel the urge to add a
caveat. The wobble area should be centered on the intended target. By doing so,
you can increase the time and the frequency in which the trajectory is crossing
the intended target zone. This is a lesson hard learned for rifle shooters for
some reason and not so with pistol shooters. For what it's worth, that's my two
cents.
Posted by Andy Wai on July 21, 2001 at 07:52:23:
Hmm... I don't quite see
why. The sight setup links your aim to the target. Your wobble area stays the
same no matter where you're actually "pointing". And then you zero to bring your
group to the center of the target. Is this any different in pistol?
During
normal shooting, you'll have to rely on groups to do your sight in. Unless
you're hooked to an electronic trainer, you can't see your wobble area. But even
there, you still have to explicitly establish the relationship between your aim
and your target. In fact, with trainers, you can sight in by changing the gun's
sight or by offseting things inside the trainer. The latter will allow you to
keep your normal zero on the gun.
Andy Wai
Posted by D.Lee on July 23, 2001 at 18:57:35:
It's not a matter of zero.
It's that when you have a natural point of aim or as some pistol shooters refer
to it area of wobble or arc of movement that is regular (meaning relatively
small and predictable) the amount of time spent in the intended target (space)
is increased when the wobble area is centered. Given a hypothetical area which
looks like a figure 8 (either horizontal or vertical) the trajectory can cross
the intended target once or up to four times (dependent on the size of the
wobble area). In the case where you're lucky enough to be in the ten all the
time it's a moot point, for someone who has a 9 ring or larger hold, then you
can potentially increase your time in the ten by a factor of four. Once again,
it's not about zero alone, it's about the amount of time you can naturally stay
in the ten without any additional effort.
Posted by JP O'Connor on July 23, 2001 at 21:50:05:
Hmmm... very thought
provoking! Thanks, Ken!
If the gun truly stops, it's only for a fraction of
a second. Not enough time for a conscious shot! But this delivers excellent
results if the shot goes "by itself". This takes some training and some trust!
Of course, the gun doesn't stop that often and for most folks, not at all.
Also, most folks use more conscious shots than otherwise. So, we have to become
comfortable and confident in smoothly delivering a shot in the steadier parts of
our hold cycle.
Even though I'm a strong proponent of the short hold
"automagical" shot, I realize that many folks aren't. I often deliver shots more
consciously as well, though I'm working on reducing the latter and increasing
the number of the former!
When working a shot, I'm sensing (but not
consciously thinking about) quality and duration of the steadier state of the
hold. Quality relates to frequency and amplitude of movement. Of course it has
to be within the acceptable area of aim, as well. (A tight group in the 8 ring
isn't much good if you are capable of doing the same thing in the ten ring!) I
also sense the potential duration... if I sense it's going to settle but not for
long then I'm not going to deliver a shot. (Well, I shouldn't!) If I sense that
it will fairly steady for a moment then I can deliver a good shot. Of course,
"steady" is relative as Ken says.
This is all taken care of "for me"... not
in the conscious mind. Even with a conscious, thought directed shot pattern, I
do not like holds that spend more than about 6 to 8 seconds on aim. Much less is
even better - and steadier. As Ken says... dressing it up usually blows it! This
is often seen on electronic trainers. One can sometimes tell "how" the athlete
delivered the shot by the pattern on the screen.
Having said this, I
personally much prefer the "automagical" shot (or whatever you prefer to call
it) and I do everything possible in training and competition to facilitate this
style of shot delivery.
Not sure how well this fits with the original
post... but it did get me thinking about the topic. Your thoughts??
"Feel
Center!"-JP
A query in response to Ken Johnson's "stability in a region"
Posted by Beth Tidmore on July 25, 2001 at 11:28:01:
Your point is great
(I think) but as a fairly new shooter it's all Greek to me. I interpret what was
said to mean the shot should be delivered when movement is at its minimum. Or
when your hold is at its natural and steady point even if that's not the ten
ring. Is this right? If so, when you find that comfortable steady position and
you hold settles (let's say it settles into the eight ring) how do you adjust to
the ten ring without destroying your position? Obviously, you don't just tighten
some arm muscle or hold your breath and force the shot. How do you avoid
"dressing up the shot" and make you natural point of aim be the ten ring? Am I
making sense or am I proving that this is, in fact, all Greek to me?! Any advice
and/or clarification is more than appreciated!
Posted by STL William on July 26, 2001 at 02:52:58:
Excellent
clarification question! But there are so many variables’s to think of that deal
with you and the situation. I'm way too tired to go into it now. But if Ken or
J.P. don't get this one for you before I have to leave for camp Perry Friday
I'll give it a try.
I have no idea why I got myself into this, but I've got
to go shoot highpower for the Missouri state team, so I will miss all my
internet activities for the next week or so.
(Shooting an AR-15 or a garrand
really makes me appreciate my Anschutz.)
Posted by JP O'Connor on July 26, 2001 at 20:56:34:
Ken hasn't posted on
TT for about a week and might not for another couple of days... hmmm... Camp
Perry smallbore phase maybe? :-)
Hopefully, he and others will follow up
soon.
Ken no doubt means that the center of the stability "region" is on the
center of the target. If you see it is out and pull the trigger... no wonder it
is not a ten. Conversely, if you see it centered and pull the trigger - but the
gun isn't stable enough - that isn't a ten either. I guess that part is obvious.
...otherwise you wouldn't have asked! :-)
Do not confuse "point of aim" with
"natural point of aim" (NPA). Also, do not confuse adjusting your NPA *prior* to
one or more shots with making (allowing) very *minor* corrections in your hold
*during* a shot delivery process.
If you settle in and find the is gun truly
stable on the eight ring (not just wandering out there for a moment)... stop the
shot process. Now! Getting to the ten is not a minor correction! Forcing it in
isn't appropriate, as you mentioned.
Even if your NPA is at, say 9.5, it
isn't good enough for top performance. You must feel that it is truly
centered.
Determine if the problem is caused by NPA (don't assume!) or if it
was caused by an error. If your NPA seems to vary a lot shot to shot... it isn't
NPA problems. For example, something might have been different this time as
compared to your earlier shots. Was your hand in *exactly* the same place on the
forearm? ...wrist and hand in *exactly* the same position? ...elbow in *exactly*
the same place on your ribs/tummy/hip? ...was your head in *exactly* the same
position with respect to the gun (sights, cheekpiece, etc.)? ...was your body
and muscle tension *exactly* the same? ...was, was, was... and on and on!
Recheck your NPA very carefully. Remember, the eyes must be closed long
enough for any "extra" muscle signals to go away that were centering your sight
picture. Then be sure to open your eyes only when you sense a fairly stable
point in your movement.
Many will suggest ever so slightly twisting your
foot (pointing the foot a bit more behind you, or... etc.) to cause an NPA
change. This certainly will work and is used by many.
However, for those who
know the effect of subtle foot movements on balance and have tuned their balance
using this technique... the NPA "correction" just detuned the balance! One must
"spin" the entire position as if on a turntable when using the feet to adjust
NPA. It's a bit of a pain at first... spin (tiny adjustments, please),
recheck/retune balance, check NPA, repeat if needed... but it becomes second
nature.
Of course, if there is a change in any other part of the position,
that will affect NPA. Therefore, many athletes will also use ever so subtle
changes in external position... the forward elbow position on the body, for
example... to make minor corrections. Be careful that this doesn't destabilize
the position however.
Really use the inner position in all of this.
Hopefully this helps a bit... more detail here would have made the post too
long.
"Feel Center!"
-JP
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