Posted by Pete on October 12, 2001 at 13:08:37:
What are the current
theories on using two stage triggers? I have seen little written on the
technique for releasing the two stage trigger versus any other trigger. Having
used single stage triggers for years, I have a tendency to take up the first
stage as I come on the target. I hold there as the sight alignment is improved
and the weapon settles into a good hold. I allow the trigger finger to increase
the pull until the weapon fires. I pretty well know when the shoot will go off;
it only requires the slightest movement.
I have experimented with holding
the first stage at some other point in its movement and swinging through the
second stage more like a double action revolver. You never really know when the
weapon will go off if your attention remains on the sights and not how the
trigger feels against your finger.
Posted by Jerry on October 12, 2001 at 13:42:23:
What is the current
philosophy of adjusting the weights of the two stages? i.e.
Most of the
weight in the first stage and just a little more to break the shot.
Some
intermediate balancing...50-50 or whatever...
Little weight in the first
stage, most in the second stage.
--Jerry
Posted by JP O'Connor on October 12, 2001 at 16:17:13:
In general, you
want much of the total weight to be on the first stage. Remember, the perceived
final weight is only the difference between the 1st and 2nd (total) stage
weights.
There are a couple of traps however: 1) too much weight on 1st
stage, and 2) too light a total weight. If the difference between the 1st and
2nd stage weight is too slight, then one may accidently fire the shot when
taking up the first stage. Fearing this prevents proper operation of the trigger
and is to be avoided at all costs. (See my reply to the original post in this
thread.)
Often, with rifle (where there is no rule on minimum trigger
weight), shooters will have difficulty delivering shots and go to an ever lower
trigger weight. This is not the correct action. The problem is caused by lack of
confidence in delivering the shot... lowering the trigger weight only adds
problems without correcting the root problem.
Shooters sometimes will have
"flutter finger" as well... this is also indicative of lack of confidence...
though they may protest that they are confident.
Often, having a front
aperture that is way too small is the main culprit in "hair trigger" and
"flutter finger" syndromes. For example, in air rifle one should have about a
4.2mm front aperture. (...assuming a "normal" barrel length and no extension
tube.) How many actually shoot with a 3.6, 3.8 or similar! This really belongs
in a different thread, so no more comments here on that.
An excellent
starting point for rifle is 100 gm total weight with about 50gm on the first
stage. If the athlete is able to have more weight on the first stage - without
affecting their ability to aggressively take the first stage up - this should be
ok. However, having 80 gm on the first stage only leaves 20gm difference for
breaking the shot... seldom a good idea!
For pistol, one often sees 400gm on
the first stage which leaves 100gm difference for the minimum legal trigger
weight of 500gm. Again, it depends on the athlete.
Regardless, one MUST be
able to take up the first stage without the *slightest* thought or concern of
accidentally pulling through the second stage and prematurely firing the shot.
"Feel Center!"
-JP
Posted by Warren on October 12, 2001 at 19:32:03:
The "but" being that you
must not create a point in the trigger that can become a teeter point. Too much
weight on the first stage (and the resultant light second stage) will encourage
you to hold it right on the brink of release, wait for a prefect sight picture,
then MAKE the shot break. This can even work okay in the comfort of your own
home, but believe me, try it under a little stress and it's Goodnight Irene (and
Goodbye Tenring).
The main thing is the ability to apply pressure until the
shot breaks ALL BY ITSELF. This isn't hard to set up a trigger to do ... but
it's kinda hard to set up the self confidence to DO it.
Posted by pete on October 12, 2001 at 22:30:20:
And here in lies the
question. I read Warren as indicating that the trigger finger muscles are slowly
increasing pressure, and you had better have the sights aligned when it happens.
I think this is what I am calling a double action revolver motion. You are
pulling, in the case of the double action, an increase heavy weight until the
hammer clears the sear. In the case of taking up the entire first stage, you are
waiting and releasing a seemingly lower weight of the second stage rather than
the entire weight of the trigger. You pretty much know when it will happen.
Posted by Warren on October 13, 2001 at 08:55:54:
Yes, you should be
concentrating on keeping the sights aligned whenever you go through the
triggering process. But wouldn't that be quite easy - keeping the sight aligned
- SOMEWHERE in the aiming area? Don't assume that you have to have a perfect
sight placement on the target as well as perfect sight alignment. It's not that
critical, and because most of us think it is, we become too concerned about
pinning the sights to a point on the target. Thus we induce the over-hold and
the consciously fired shot.
:I think this is what I am calling a double
action revolver motion. You are pulling, in the case of the double action, an
increase heavy weight until the hammer clears the sear. In the case of taking up
the entire first stage, you are waiting and releasing a seemingly lower weight
of the second stage rather than the entire weight of the trigger. You pretty
much know when it will happen.
I have a very specific use for the first
stage. I must stress again that I'm talking pistol here. I use the first stage
as an indicator that I have the exact trigger finger placement and direction of
squeeze to affect a trigger release that will not kick the gun in any undesired
direction. Literally, I "bounce" the trigger finger against the second stage,
moving it a millimeter or so back and forth, taking careful note of what effect
it has on the front sight. If it weaves to the side, I have my direction of
squeeze wrong. If it sits unmoving I have it right. This has taken place just
above the target , I'll then move into the aiming area and - TAKING CARE TO
REPRODUCE THE EXACT DIRECTIONAL MOVEMENT OF THE TRIGGER, squeeze positively
until the shot breaks a few seconds later. If you have the sight alignment in
focus (mental and optical) I don't care where it breaks, as long as it's in the
acceptable area of movement in the aiming area, it will be a ten.
Posted by JP O'Connor on October 13, 2001 at 00:37:32:
Hi Pete,
I see
what you mean. Let's see if I can explain!
Someone who shoots that double
action a lot is going to know when it is going to go off as well. The first
stage of a 2 stage trigger is not meant to be slowly taken up as part of a
continuous motion until the shot breaks... it is meant to be taken up prior to
the final delivery of the shot. Although we will find shooters who sort of
"ignore" the 2 stages and just pull all the way through... this is not good
technique. Just because the 1st stage is taken up, one will not "know" when the
shot is going off any more than if it was a single stage trigger. It is all a
matter of the athlete's familiarity with the trigger - not the weight or travel
of the trigger. Of course, if one says "Now!" and pulls the trigger... well,
they know when it will go off even if they are not familiar with the trigger!
:-) It is this latter effect that Warren is warning about.
Maybe you are
thinking in terms of trigger movement only... more pressure, more movement, and
eventually it goes off. While the first stage is fully taken up, then of course,
there will be no additional movement of the trigger until the shot breaks. (We
are talking about a crisp air pistol or air rifle trigger... there are some
exceptions with sport, rapid, and standard pistol.) Warren is talking about
adding pressure to the trigger (which is not moving) until the shot goes off.
Even though there is no movement of the trigger... one can add pressure until it
fires.
If your first stage is too heavy (many are) you will have difficulty
with the shot delivery as Warren had cautioned. This could also make it
difficult for you to feel the (slight) added pressure on the 2nd stage just
before the shot is delivered. Experiment with some weight taken off the first
stage and see what you notice.
A different example... I've taken up free
pistol recently and am pleasantly surprised to find a significant percentage of
my shots are what I call "automagical" rather than consciously commanded. It is
a 40 gm single stage trigger with *zero* creep. (This is fairly "heavy" as free
pistols go although some go much higher... others get waaaay too light!) Once
the trigger moves, the gun is going off. One would think that all shots with
this trigger would be known... however, it isn't the weight or the movement...
it is the shot delivery method. If you are using conscious control (as many do)
you are preventing yourself from experiencing the "it shoots" method, which
really pays benefits. I'll post on this latter topic in reply to Jim's query.
"Feel Center!"
-JP
Posted by JP O'Connor on October 12, 2001 at 22:03:20:
Yes... too much
weight on the 1st makes it hard to get the 1st taken up without fear of an
accidental shot and - worse - it provides a 2nd stage that is way too light
which is a bad thing for the reasons stated in Warren's and my posts. Warren
brings up another excellent point. Often, shooters will use a technique that is
"fragile". It works great at home... and collapses under pressure. Rifle and
free pistol shooters with "hair" triggers is an example, and an air pistol
shooter with a really heavy 1st stage falls into the same trap.
Notice that
Warren also believes in the "by itself" method of shot release. So does Eric
Buljung. Many students resist this... hmmm... wonder why their scores plateau
and their game is off in big matches? ;-)
"Feel Center!"
-JP
Posted by Jim Holtman on October 12, 2001 at 23:26:38:
I understand the
"by itself" method, but have never been able to allow it to happen consistently.
When it does occur, sometimes as what seems like an accidental discharge, the
results are usually a deep ten. Is there a way to transistion from a conscious
shooter to a mental shooter? I have reached the plateau (air rifle 550-560) and
am sure this is way, I just don't know how to change.
Jim
Posted by JP O'Connor on October 13, 2001 at 01:35:56:
- Bingo! That
"accidental" discharge with a resulting deep ten was no accident. It was your
subconscious mind getting tired of waiting around for the conscious mind to get
on with it. Therefore, "It" shot! Total Zen. Or total Zone. Or total Flow State.
Whatever.
This is not something that can be taught and absorbed just from a
few paragraphs in a post. Ultimately, it can only be learned experientially by
the athlete themselves with an open mind. All we can do is help set the stage.
Closed minds will never grasp it.
The body and subconscious mind work
together far better than we imagine. ... Far better than we usually will trust.
After all, we are taught to "pay attention" when we wish to do better. That's
the conscious mind. Unfortunately, the eye and conscious mind are too slow for
the level of performance that we desire.
You happened to have a quiet mind on
those few "accidental" shots. You were likely not worried about the outcome of
the match or the score at those moments. Nor were you analyzing your shooting.
You "just shot".
How to change? ... Don’t "try" to change... "Just shoot".
...and trust the shots when they go. Have the trigger ready and have your *self*
ready so that the accidental shots are no longer a shock... rather they are
welcomed as being normal. Yes, this seems backwards... let them (automatic
shots) come to you... don't you "try" to come to them.
An
illustration:
Have you ever tried to catch a young child or puppy that
thought it was a great game to run away and be chased by you? It's hard to catch
them! Sit down on the floor and before you know it they both climb up in your
lap to play.
Effortlessly, you now catch them. Hmmm!
Let me repeat how to
facilitate this in a different manner than just above. (When I say "you" it
really means anyone, I'm not picking on Jim at all!)
If you have a 2 stage
trigger, you *must* have the first stage taken up fully *before* you arrive on
target. Period. If you have a single stage trigger, you must be touching the
trigger before you arrive on the target. Period. If you are afraid of this, you
either have not trained to the trigger or it is maladjusted. (Often, too light
or too little difference between first and second stage.)
Regardless, you
*must* be psychologically *ready* to deliver the shot. Don't pussy foot
around... "Oh, I have to check my hold first." NO, you do NOT! You just think
you do and thus get in your own way! Or whatever else goes on. Quit messing
around and shoot the darn thing. "But that's how I always do it and I got better
when I did it that way." Yeah, and you are having a problem breaking the current
plateau now because...?
Most athletes shoot tighter groups on blank cards
than on targets. Of course, they often don't believe this until they have done
it with the right guidance in how to approach the drill. So, how then is this
possible? Deprived of an aiming mark, they no longer fear their score. More
importantly, they no longer have as good a cue about their movement. Thus they
will get on with the shot in a more comfortable manner. (I usually use black
cards so that they can't "aim" at their previous hits.) Their hold times go
down, trigger control improves, follow through and shot call improves, comfort
level improves... all good things. Oh, and their groups are *smaller* than on a
regular target. Deprived of the aiming mark, the subconscious mind depends more
on the kinesthetic input (feel) from the body, which puts the gun in the same
place each time. The conscious mind has less chance to screw things up!
Do
not focus on score, or how well you want to do, or what you need to do to your
position. You cannot make yourself shoot well or have a high score. You can
perform the shot routine the way you are supposed to and... good scores and good
outcomes will climb right into your lap! ...just like those "accidental" deep
tens. There is a time for analysis in training, and for score *after* a match,
and one must have keen awareness (not focus) of critical aspects of the shooting
when competing... yet we often mix the these and have poorer results.
Jim is
on the right track!
I apologize for this somewhat disjointed discussion...
I've covered many items and no doubt have left many loose ends. I hope this post
has been of some value to at least stimulate thinking and discussion.
One
final note. If you are a musician, I *dare* you to play a 2 or 3 octave scale
with arpeggio on eighth notes by *thinking* about each note. It won't be pretty
will it! If you are not a musician, ask someone who is. Or a dancer, diver, or
gymnast... they all stop thinking and just do when they perform well. (Oh, and
the bad pun about final "note" was intended. Sorry!)
"Feel Center!"
-JP
Posted by Greg Sauve on October 13, 2001 at 10:15:51:
JP-As I was reading
your post I was thinking about the similarity to playing a musical instrument as
I am a professional musician and music teacher. You are exactly correct, if I
consciously think about the individual mechanics of playing it is very difficult
if not impossible for me to play. Of course I have drilled the mechanics
required thousands if not millions of times. Another parallel between shooting
and musical performance is the need to practice correctly. Simply playing
through something in a haphazard manner can do more harm than good. So- to apply
this to shooting-work on fundamentals of grip, breathing, sights, trigger until
they become automatic. Simply shooting a lot will not necessarily improve your
scores. If one area is weak try to devise a drill to work on it alone and do it
over and over-always correctly. That's how technique is developed on a musical
instrument, isolate the area of concern and work on it, going slowly and
correctly over and over. In music the trick is to think about the desired result
(the music) so in shooting I guess "think 10's" would be the parallel! Greg
Posted by JP O'Connor on October 13, 2001 at 22:19:34:
Wow! Clear and
concise!
We've all heard the saying "Practice Makes Perfect" but it isn't
true as you say. "Practice Makes Permanent" so we had better have it right!
"Perfect (Correct) Practice Makes Perfect".
Your comment about isolating a
problem area and correcting it through appropriate drills is right on. Too many
shooters just do the whole routine (thus practicing the mistake) without seeking
out or inventing drills that correct the weak area.
I do have an alternate
idea about "think 10" that I would like to share:
It is an unfortunate
circumstance of our sport, that we only have score to decide who wins. Score is
external to the athlete (performer). While it is true that the music "flows"
from the performer, through the instrument, and into the air, our performance in
shooting is also within. If we "perform" within properly, then that pesky thing
called score that is way down range will turn out ok. Thinking about "10's"
takes the focus external and degrades the performance. We must focus within in
order to perform well in shooting and not on the score. This is a very subtle,
yet important difference from the musical performance where one can focus on the
outcome since it is still so internal to the performer.
I comment on musical
performance in one of my QuickShots articles. Article number 6 was tailor made
for musicians! http://www.pilkguns.com/coach/jpindx.htm
And what, you ask,
do I propose as an alternative to "think 10"? One choice has been my signoff
line here on TT:
"Feel Center!"
-JP
Posted by Greg Sauve on October 14, 2001 at 00:41:55:
JP- I agree 100%.
"Feel Center" is really what I wanted to say! "Think 10's" is not as good. I was
picturing the center area of the target not the numerical result so my semantics
did not match my thoughts. To "think 10's" in music would be akin to thinking
about the result of your playing (are you impressing someone, winning a contest,
etc.) rather than thinking about the music itself. This is also a well known
method of curing stage fright. Don't think about the people in the room or what
they think of you (external), let your mind be free to think the music you are
making. Thanks for the clarification. Greg
Posted by JP O'Connor on October 12, 2001 at 15:52:20:
You want the first
stage completely taken up once and for all by the time you arrive on target. You
need to be mentally ready to deliver the target from the moment you arrive at
your chosen area of aim.
Many shooters do not take up the first stage until
they have already arrived on the target and seen a good hold. That's way too
late. They are wasting their best steady state!
One must be able to take up
the first stage without the slightes fear, concern, self doubt, etc. about
"accidently" pulling through and firing the shot early. Setting up the trigger
to facilitate this will be covered in my reply to the "tuning" question.
Posted by Jerry on October 13, 2001 at 09:12:08:
Ok, I understand it is
not a good idea to "hold" too long due to oxygen deprivation and muscle fatigue.
I have noticed that if I try to hold too long that my shots have a tendency
to drift low and to the left ( and I shake too much...)
I have only been
shooting since May and have not had the opportunity to watch any experts or even
attend *any* matches.
If I were to watch an expert marksman, about how long
after raising the pistol would it take for the shot to break ( or the pistol
pulled down).
I have generally raised the pistol above the target and try to
take up the first stage as the pistol settles down into the target area, some
times it is difficult to stop the descent of the aim point. Do some people
take up the slack as the pistol is raised and try to stop when the aim point is
reached on the way up? --Jerry
Posted by JP O'Connor on October 13, 2001 at 22:01:38:
Hi Jerry,
Very
good questions! Many (differing) answers! Here are some thoughts:
1)
Hold Time
There are (at least) 2 schools of thought...
a) short hold (1-10
seconds),
and b) longer hold as needed. a) I am a proponent of the "short hold"
school of thought. The idea is that the body and brain are fresh as you arrive
on target and things deteriorate as time goes on... carbon dioxide levels
increase, muscles fatigue and tremble, the conscious mind notices all this and
rushes things. Also, the retina suffers a temporary depletion of a critical
chemical starting about 7 seconds (or so) into the hold. Soon, you are not
seeing what you think you are! Thus, you want to get on target (don't rush!),
allow the body to settle, and allow the shot to break. (Per several of the posts
in this thread.) I prefer to see the shot go off in 1 to 6 seconds, maybe up to
10. We do drills where the gun comes down on an 8 count from the time the sight
arrives in the area of aim regardless of whether the shot was fired.
b)
Longer holds as "needed" are allowed by another school of thought. If one has
sufficient strength and has trained a LOT, one can hold longer. Many who try are
not strong enough - they just think they are! One must also be capable of
handling the potential mental "urgency" to take the shot. This technique does
work for some... though I will admit I'm rather skeptical of it. If my fellow
"short holders" promise not to burn me at the stake as a heretic, I will admit
that I have experimented with this technique in order to learn more about it. I
find that after the first few steady states pass that sometimes another steadier
state will arrive which allows the shot to go cleanly. I do not have the
strength to do this regularly and also notice that it is easy to make a mistake
this way. In summary... excellent strength and endurance and significant amounts
of training are required to use this successfully.
-- 2) When 1st Stage
No doubt you have seen the other posts on timing of the 1st stage in this
thread. Yes, I like to take up the first stage as I'm settling down to my area
of aim such that it is fully taken up just before I arrive. If one waits until
arriving on the area of aim to take it up... one wastes the best hold phase!
--3) Movement to Target
For air and free pistol (and rifle), I like
to go above the target somewhat (not at a 45 degree angle as some do!) and then
"settle" down to the area of aim where the shoulder "locks" in place (if only
mentally locks). For the rapid phase of sport and center fire pistol, standard
pistol, and rapid fire pistol, the athlete most typically rises and stops on the
area of aim.
Some free pistol and (a very few) air pistol shooters will use
a slow, smooth, controlled downward movement throught the area of aim and break
the shot as the sight (somewhat slowly) passes the desired spot. This requires a
TON of training... not for the casual shooter. Whether it is a better technique
inder the strain of competition is open to question.Hopefully, these
thoughts have provided some insight.
Since you are new to the sport, may I
suggest a some wonderful resources that you will find on Scott's web site
www.
pilkguns.com:
1)Warren Potter's *excellent* Hitchhikers
Guide
http://www.pilkguns.com/hhg.htm
2)Athlete Interviews - ("Gold"
Nuggets!)
http://www.pilkguns.com/intervie.htm
3) My QuickShots
Articles
http://www.pilkguns.com/coach/jpindx.htm
4)The Target Talk
Archives also have some interesting thread summaries with many excellent posts
by a number of "authors".
http://www.pilkguns.com/archindx.htm
Above
all... keep it fun!
"Feel Center!"
-JP
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